Sueddeutsche Zeitung: When you were running for office in 2018, they called you a "poster boy" of the powerful Pakistan army. How did you lose the backing of the military?
Imran Khan: This was propaganda done by the two main parties. Both these parties were a product of the army. The PML-N leader is Nawaz Sharif, he was a businessman and he was picked out by the dictator Zia ul-Haq. He was nurtured by General Zia and turned into a politician by him. The other one is the PPP. Its founder Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was a member of Dictator Aqub Khan's cabinet...
...but later he was executed by military leader General Zia in 1979.
What I am saying: That's how it started. Mine is the only party that started with no backing of the army. For a long time, I was just a lone voice. Then people began to understand when I was talking about rule of law. We never had that in Pakistan. When I went to England as an 18-year-old, we had a military dictatorship. The first time I experienced the rule of law was in England and when I traveled as a cricketer to Europe and other countries. When they say that the military brought me into power I can prove that this is not true. Since I was ousted from power in April 2022, there have been 37 by-elections and the military establishment stands with the current government. So the government machinery has worked against us but we still have won 30 out of those 37 by-elections.
Do you see yourself as the only politician to run against the military in Pakistan?
The military has been entrenched in Pakistan for 75 years. It has either ruled directly or it has indirectly had an enormous influence in politics because we started as a security state after the British colonial rulers left India in 1947. Early on we were vulnerable. There was a conflict with India over Kashmir. And from then on the security forces and the army were very popular among the public. I was elected in 2018. Not with the help of the military. But they did not oppose me.
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You are facing several cases in court. How do you assess your legal situation?
The question is: How did I fall out of favor? I used to work with the army chief but he then intrigued over six months with Shehbaz Sharif who is the brother of Nawaz and the current Prime Minister. Sharif was under trial for corruption, so he joined hands with the army chief. The army chief did not allow the corruption charges to proceed and in return he was promised an extension by Shehbaz Sharif. But what has been a shock to them is the fact that hundreds of thousands of people came out to protest on the streets the day after my government was removed. Then they tried to crush my party. The more they try to crush it, the more popular it has become. Then they tried to assassinate me. On November 3rd I was hit by three bullets but only in my leg. There was another assassination attempt on March 18. Until I was 70 years old, I did not have one single court case, and in the last few months, they came up with 180 cases which is a world record. The cases are ranging from terrorism to blasphemy and corruption cases, and then there are two murder cases. Sooner or later, I will be going to jail because I will not be able to defend myself against all these cases.
In the past other political leaders in Pakistan have chosen to go into exile when they were under judicial scrutiny. Is that an option for you?
Whenever either of the political families who ruled Pakistan over the last decades, the Sharifs and the Zardari-Bhuttos, are out of power, they leave the country because they cannot face a corruption case without getting convicted. I refuse to leave because I want to face the cases. The cases are made up.
When there was the vote of no-confidence against you in parliament you had lost the support of many members of your own party.
The army chief controls the intelligence agencies. The intelligence agencies are very powerful. So the intelligence agencies started working on our allies because we were a coalition government. And then there were 20 of our guys in parliament that were paid around a million dollars each to switch sides. We could have given them counteroffers but we took a decision that we were not going to participate in this.
You are describing yourself as a victim but what about your own mistakes?
I made two mistakes: First I formed a coalition government in 2018. But a coalition government was unable to deliver on my main agenda: To bring the mafia and corrupt elites under the rule of law. I would have needed the support of the army. But the army chief was backing these mafias. I should have gone for re-elections and only come back in if I had had a big mandate. My second mistake was that I gave an extension to the army chief. Later he started to conspire against me together with the opposition.
After you lost the vote of no-confidence in parliament, you also blamed Washington for your ouster but you never gave any proof.
My government was removed on the 9th of April last year. A month earlier I had received a coded message from my ambassador in Washington after he had met the American Undersecretary of State. That message said that the Undersecretary was telling my ambassador that unless Imran Khan is removed in a vote of no-confidence, there will be consequences for Pakistan. The message was clearly not for me but for the army chief. The next day the vote of no-confidence was tabled. Within weeks, coalition partners started to leave us and so did backbenchers. But it was very much the army chief who led this coup.
At one point or another there have been criminal investigations against the influential political families in the past, now there are numerous cases against you. The political leadership of your country appears to be morally compromised.
You look at poor countries and find that poverty is a consequence of corrupt leadership. All over the developing world that's the same story. The Sharifs and Zardaris called each other corrupt for 20 years. Zardari was put in jail twice by Nawaz Sharif for corruption. The corruption cases against Nawaz Sharif were made by Zardari and the military establishment called both of them corrupt. I will prove that the cases against me are bogus. The biggest betrayal of the Pakistani people is that the army chief removed me from power and brought the two main families back into power. But my party is still the most popular one. That is the reason why the military and the current government are scared of elections and why they want to put me into jail.
Do you see any chance for you to be on the ballot for the next elections?
They are trying to disqualify me. But whenever cases came up in civil courts, that didn't work out. So now they set up a military court where they think they can disqualify me. Whether they disqualify me or put me into prison. Whenever there will be elections, I am predicting that we will sweep them. When people stand with one idea, no army can do anything about it.
You were a fierce critic of the American led military operation in Afghanistan. Is the country better off with the Taliban back in power?
Whenever you are going to another country with your military, the objectives must be very clear. As far as I am assuming, the first objective of the Americans was to kill Osama bin Laden. For that they removed the Taliban government. After Osama bin Laden was killed, what was the purpose to be in Afghanistan? Was it to bring democracy? You do not bring democracy through the barrel of a gun. Was it to liberate the Afghan women? Never in human history has an invading force liberated women. These are organic things that grow from inside. Whatever the Americans were trying to achieve would not be achieved through a military solution. When I said that it was being interpreted as Anti-American whereas it was just someone speaking who understood the situation.
Again, is Afghanistan better off now?
Pakistan's point of view is: Whichever government is in power in Afghanistan we must have good relations with it because we share a 2500 kilometer long border with them. We have three million Afghan refugees in Pakistan and if there is a conflict in Afghanistan it affects Pakistan. Peace in Afghanistan is critical. After 40 years of conflict, now this is the most peaceful Afghanistan.
What kind of a peace are you talking about given the nature of Taliban rule?
It is the Afghan government that Pakistan deals with - whether it was the government of Ashraf Ghani or this current government. In Afghanistan there are human rights abuses but they have to sort them out for themselves. Relationships among countries are unfortunately not conducted on the basis of one country adhering to human rights. It is all about interests. In Pakistan, we have no human rights now, democracy is being dismantled, more or less we have martial law. What are the Western powers saying about that? When they feel the government, and in this case the military, is helping them on their agenda, they ignore human rights.
