At 75, Roger Waters is one of the wealthiest and most influential musicians of his generation. Two days after his last concert in Germany, the founder member of Pink Floyd sat down for a talk on the seventh floor of Munich’s Bayerischer Hof Hotel. During his show at the city’s Olympiahalle, Waters had attacked Dieter Reiter, the mayor of Munich, for a press release in which he accused the musician of spreading anti-Semitic sentiment. Waters’s music is widely considered legendary: his current world tour is one of the most commercially successful in the history of pop. At the same time, however, Roger Waters has faced accusations of anti-Semitism in Germany. While he donated a high sum of money for cultural and humanitarian projects in Gaza for many years, since 2006 he has supported the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) campaign, in which activists have called on politicians, companies, artists, scientists, and athletes to cancel or discontinue any appearances, investments, or cooperation with Israel. As a BDS activist, Waters has discouraged other artists from performing in the country. At the beginning of our conversation, Roger Waters himself described the gap between the critical acclaim for his music and songwriting and the scathing rejection of his activism as “a wall of silence”.
Erschienen im SZ-Magazin 37/2018. Lesen Sie die deutsche Fassung hier mit SZ Plus.Roger Waters and the interviewerErschienen im SZ-Magazin 37/2018. Lesen Sie die deutsche Fassung hier mit SZ Plus. met spontaneously after the Munich scandal. Their conversation, which went on for several hours, was animated and at times loud. In the end, they agreed to meet a second time. The second interview at Amsterdam’s Amstel Hotel served to complement and update the Munich talk.
SZ-Magazin: Roger, you are being celebrated on your current world
tour. Performances like the one you gave in Hyde Park a few weeks ago
have gotten rave reviews, as has your latest album. However, especially
in Germany, you’ve been accused of something very serious:
anti-Semitism. You have rejected the accusation and pointed the finger
at German politicians during your concerts in Berlin and Munich.
Roger Waters: Ok, straight to the point, good, I like that. The accusation of anti-Semitism is routinely used in attempts to discredit anyone who criticises Israeli policy. For instance, your mayor in Munich wrongly accused me of anti-Semitism and wanted to cancel my shows here because of my position against the Israeli government’s right-wing, religious political stance, which I consider apartheid, and because of my commitment to supporting the rights of Palestinians. So the mayor is ignorant, no surprise there. But what concerned me, was that in Germany, I was not allowed a voice and faced a wall of silence. Although I had played to some 90,000 fans, no one from the German media would talk to me about the issue until this interview today.
You support BDS, an organisation that calls primarily for a boycott of Israel to draw attention to the situation of the Palestinians in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. There is good reason to suggest that BDS also has an anti-Semitic motive. And it‘s ironic that an organisation that denounces the oppression of R The activist Roger Waters, the former singer of Pink Floyd, has received rave reviews for his current world tour. But critics have accused the 75-year-old Briton of anti-Semitism for his vocal support of BDS, an organization that calls for a boycott of Israel. His response: “They just want me to keep my mouth shut!” A debate. Interview Alexander Gorkow Süddeutsche Zeitung Magazin the people in Gaza works with oppressive methods itself.
The Israeli army has withdrawn from the Gaza Strip. There is not a single Israeli soldier inside the Gaza Strip, which is ruled by Hamas. Hamas does not recognize Israel’s right to exist.
Since the so-called, “Israeli withdrawal” Gaza has been an “open-air prison”, a humanitarian disaster that Israel caused. This fact is not disputed. Israel has maintained an 11- year illegal siege as a form of collective punishment of the population of Palestine. Most recently, we’ve seen Israeli snipers during the Great March for Return demonstrations, just following orders, gunning down unarmed Palestinian protesters. And by accusing the BDS movement of antiSemitism, you are suggesting that I, as a supporter of BDS, am either anti-Semitic or stupid. Actually, I am neither. The reason why Israel is so worked up about BDS is, in the words of former Israeli General Amos Gilad, „We don’t do Gandhi very well.“ The thing Israel fears the most is a non-violent grassroots movement that demands equality and justice for all, regardless of religion or ethnicity. That is what BDS is.
Last year, the young singer Riff Cohen from Tel Aviv, who has Arabic roots by the way, wanted to perform at the Pop Culture Festival in Berlin. BDS put pressure on the singer because the Israeli Embassy was one of the festival sponsors. In fact, it subsidised the singer‘s travel expenses to the tune of 500 euros. Does BDS think that Israeli artists should no longer be allowed to perform in Germany?
First of all, your question is very misleading. BDS does not target individuals. The movement is aimed against the government of Israel and complicit institutions that collude with it on human rights violations.
Riff Cohen is an individual.
True. What BDS was disturbed by at the Pop Culture Festival in Berlin was the support by the Israeli government. The government of Israel sponsors the travel expenses and other expenses of artists as a form of “cultural whitewashing”. Representatives of the Israeli Foreign Ministry admitted that they use culture as a propaganda tool to show off Israel‘s „nice side“. Festivals like Pop Culture in Berlin are part of this political move to “whitewash” Israel‘s image and normalize its illegal actions. No one is oppressing Riff Cohen! She can come and go as she pleases. The point is that the Palestinians in Gaza are not free.
You have a humanitarian concern, namely to draw attention to the awful situation in Gaza. Unfortunately, you are joining forces with an organisation that denies Israel’s right to exist.
BDS does not deny Israel’s right to exist. The BDS movement has three goals: the end of military rule over the Palestinians in the occupied territories that started in 1967. Complete equality for the Palestinian citizens of Israel, who form around 20% of the population and are systematically discriminated against because they are not Jewish – and, as you know, Benjamin Netanyahu’s new nation-state law means that this discrimination is now regulated by law. Third, the BDS insists on the implementation of the internationally recognised right of return for Palestinian refugees, who were driven out of their homes when Israel was founded and afterwards. The only state being denied the right to exist is Palestine.
The head of the BDS National Committee BNC is Omar Barghouti. He says, for example, „It is impossible to accept Israel as a Jewish state on our land.“
I have known Omar for several years and have followed his statements. He is a defender of human rights, who was awarded the Gandhi Peace Award in 2017 from the NGO „Promoting Enduring Peace“ He, like the rest of the BDS movement, fights against every form of racism and religious discrimination. Many responsible people have problems with a state in which a group defined by its religion or ethnic affiliation rules over a group of another religion or ethnicity – and in which two entirely different legislative programmes for the two groups apply. Can you imagine Germany with separate rights and laws for Catholics and Protestants? This summer in Germany, there were demands to discredit or silence me. I am not alone. Look around, and you will see that anyone who criticises the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians is attacked in a similar fashion!
Everyone in Germany who wants to express criticism about the Israeli government’s settlement policy is free to do so. In fact, it is all over the newspapers.
Criticizing Israeli settlements is a good first step, but you’re missing the bigger issue of decades of apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that smear campaigns against critics are among the favourite methods employed by the Israeli government. It‘s annoying, because it stifles free speech and discourages the conversation, but, it is becoming less effective, thank God. When I speak to my audiences on this tour, I get the impression that the overwhelming majority of the German people feel that our brothers and sisters all over the world should enjoy equal human and civil rights according to international law, regardless of their religion or ethnicity.
Omar Barghouti’s words would mean the end of Israel’s existence. Is this what you want?
The Israeli people must decide themselves whether they want their state to continue to exist. The government is pursuing a policy of "Greater Israel", of maintaining control over the whole of historic Palestine. Such a state would have to be an apartheid state; that is unacceptable. Also, Omar‘s words have been taken out of context. They come from a televised discussion in Oslo. What he actually said was that „a Jewish State in Palestine, no matter what form and composition, goes against the fundamental rights of the native Palestinian population and creates a system of racial discrimination which must be resisted categorically – just like we would resist a „Muslim state“, a "Christian state" or any other exclusionary state.“
Do you seriously believe that the BDS is striving for a peaceful two-state solution?
Of course. BDS has always strived for a peaceful solution, one that would respect the human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis. Whether this solution involves one or two states is secondary. But it should be mentioned that your question about a two-state solution is somewhat irrelevant. For over two decades, successive Israeli governments have systematically frustrated the possibility of a two-state solution by encouraging new illegal settlements on stolen Palestinian land.
Did critics of this policy speak of a "Jewish lobby"?
I don’t know, I doubt it.
Yes, they did. What exactly is the "Jewish lobby"?
Well it’s wrong to speak of a "Jewish lobby". Although it is true that many supporters of Israel are Jewish – at the same time many Jewish Americans do not support Israeli policy. On the other hand, many Christian evangelicals do. It would be better to speak of an "Israeli lobby". Why is it called a "lobby"? Because many Zionist organisations and powerful political financial backers like Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban exert an enormous influence over US government’s policy on Israel. But again, many American Jews condemn US policy. Many of them believe that the brutal military rule over the Palestinians is in absolute conflict with the intrinsic humanity of Judaism and their own progressive values. They cannot, for instance, in good faith, support what happened last spring at the Israeli fence around Gaza: peacefully protesting Palestinians shot down by Israeli snipers, who were under orders to shoot to kill or cripple their victims. Some of those victims were shot in the back.
Of course, what else? It‘s a peaceful protest. Thousands and thousands of ordinary people. Families, men, women and children. OK, there were also a few young men who exercised their moral and legal right to resist an occupying army and burnt some tyres and used slingshots to hurl stones from a distance at heavily armed soldiers. Brave young men who were much too far away to hit anyone with their slingshots, okay? Unprotected, without cover, face to face with the most powerful army in the Middle East. Come on, man. Really! It was a massacre. Over 120 Palestinians dead, thousands injured, and the Israelis? Not a scratch.
Hamas admitted that dozens of Hamas activists were among the 120 Palestinians who were killed. Do you wish to deny the suicide bombings in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, or the Qassam rockets? This year, around 100 rockets and mortars were shot towards Israel ...
No, of course I‘m not denying that! But it would be heartless and wrong to consider the situation as an armed conflict between two comparable opponents! Naturally, I condemn the use of crude homemade rockets and mortars that could kill or injure Israeli citizens, but these relatively ineffectual acts of resistance cannot be compared to the merciless and murderous attacks by a state-of-the-art, modern army and air force on a defenceless population. In Gaza, two million desperate people are kept under guard by an army that blocks all access, by land or sea, and that controls everything that goes in and out, whether electricity, food, water, everything, weighs it out, and gives just enough so that these people have too much to die and not enough to live. Are you surprised that there is a militant factor in the resistance in Gaza?
No one denies that the situation in Gaza is dire, and as already said, Netanyahu‘s settlement policy has also been criticised by the German chancellor.
I am delighted that the Chancellor criticises the settlements, but such gentle admonitions are not enough. The EU should impose a weapons embargo – as human rights organisations have repeatedly called for – until Israel finally complies with international law.
Which country would not defend itself against attacks?
Against young people who are sent as suicide bombers by their parents to Israel? You really don‘t want to understand, do you? We are not talking about two equally strong parties, with one conducting a dirty fight, while the other is only defending itself. That is a false myth spread by the mainstream media . . .
What you mean by "mainstream media"?
Let me finish. This is a conflict over land. And this conflict has two sides. One side has gained the upper hand and is relentlessly trying to get rid of the other. There is only one David in this tale, and it is not Israel. In Gaza, two million souls are barely surviving in a prison! The idea that this is self-defence on the part of Israel is nonsense – a myth.
The mainstream media are a fabrication of conspiracy theorists, of radical right trolls and people like Donald Trump. People you do not want to have anything to do with, Mr. Waters! People you sing against! I have worked for 25 years for a major newspaper. It is sometimes good, sometimes bad – but what do you mean by "mainstream media"?
Okay. Let me explain. Here in Germany, the situation may be different ... For example, we are printing this interview with Roger Waters ... Only because I knocked on your door to invite you over for a cup of tea.
My door is fine.
That’s great. At any rate, in the USA, where I live, "mainstream media" is defined as all the newspapers and magazines that people commonly read, and all the common TV and radio stations. Most of them communicate a hegemonic message tailored to consumers, and are controlled by companies or oligarchs interested in maintaining the status quo. This is not a conspiracy theory. It is a description of the mainstream media in the USA.
Newspapers report what happens in Gaza. Journalists from the free press in the United States, Germany, the UK, etc. travel to Gaza and investigate. They write about what they see, they criticise Netanyahu. All that is possible and it takes place. Do I have to defend the free press to Roger Waters?
Of course not! We all desperately wish for a free press. And if Germany truly has a free press rather than one dependent on corporations, that‘s even better. But my experience in Germany has been different: I didn’t have the feeling that reporting on the conflict between Israel and Palestine was impartial. At any rate, in the USA, the press is controlled by corporations. Journalists there who deviate from the narrative that "Israel is just defending itself" can encounter difficulty. Regarding Israel, the mainstream media are still biased. I get my news these days from blogs, some of which are written by people who used to work for mainstream periodicals and lost their jobs because they criticised Israel.
Are you sure about that?
Name these colleagues!
Okay. Two well-known names from the tip of the iceberg. Phil Giraldi was dismissed from American Conservative, for his critical stance on Israeli policy. Philip Weiss wrote regularly for the New York Observer and New York Magazine, until he expressed criticism of Israeli policy. He has never had an article printed in either magazine since.
Phil Giraldi is a former CIA spy who has moonlighted as columnist. And the media outlets that you name in connection with Philip Weiss deny that his political views have nothing to do with the fact that he no longer writes for them. You are a conspiracy theorist. I am sorry to say it, but you live in a filter bubble! Certainly one of us is living in a filter bubble.
The search for the truth is becoming more difficult. But perhaps the scope for criticising Israel is expanding in the USA and elsewhere. That is why Israel is working so hard to suppress BDS. That is why your mayor in Munich wanted to ban my concert.
On your last record “Is This The Life We Really Want?” you describe the state of our world with subtle, delicate poetry. What is at the root of your re- Süddeutsche Zeitung Magazin cent obsession to bombard the audience with speeches and commentaries on current political affairs?
My friend, you were not paying attention. My political convictions and the fact that I express these convictions extend back over the entire time of my twenty years with Pink Floyd and the thirty years since I left Pink Floyd. It’s possible that you never understood my work. Or did you know that Pink Floyd was deeply political during my years in the band?
Pink Floyd were poetic and philosophical. Then they became political. Only later under your considerable influence did they become involved in current affairs. Dark Side Of The Moon or Animals addresses fundamental questions of loneliness, isolation, and rebellion. Now you are sending messages to your audiences: defend yourself against Orban, defend yourself against Zuckerberg, defend yourself against this, defend yourself against that. Why don‘t you let timeless lyrics from songs like "Pigs" work on their own? Why add the message "Trump is a pig"?
It is no longer the Seventies! We live in another age. The world has become a more dangerous place, and there is a need to name things. During the intermission in the show, I display the words "Resist Mark Zuckerberg!" on the LED screen, because I believe the collaboration of Facebook and Google with the US government is dangerous. They control, censor, and manipulate. We are surrounded by propaganda, and that is why I take the opportunity to spread messages like, "Do not allow the bastards to silence Julian Assange."
The consequences are tricky, though. You are on Facebook yourself.
Are you trying to say that it’s inconsistent to criticize Facebook and use it? Ok, you’re right, it is a tricky matter. In my defence, I consistently try to do the right thing.
One of your greatest songs, Pigs, from 1977, describes a dark power. The song, its poetry, is greater than Trump. And I feel that you compromise this great, timeless song by limiting it to Trump to create an easy semblance of protest at a concert.
Hmm. Yes. I understand what you mean, and in a way I agree. Pigs is a good song and Trump is fifth-rate. But I don‘t see how it detracts from the song to use it against Trump.
At your concert in Berlin, you attacked Felix Klein (the German government’s representative against anti-Semitism) for around 8 minutes, because he criticised your BDS engagement. Hardly any of the thousands of people in the hall knew who Felix Klein was. A furious monologue . . .
It was a tirade, yes. Much too long. I don‘t think Klein had said anything specifically against my concert. I got annoyed about the pressure being exerted on German banks to refuse to offer their services to the BDS. In Munich, I protested against your mayor who did want to stop my concert and whom I shall hopefully get for defamation. The speech in Munich was not as vehement as the one against Felix Klein, and it was much shorter. I am learning. Making speeches is new to me. I understand what you mean. I take the risk of speaking out at my concerts to encourage my audience to stand up for their convictions, to encourage them not to remain silent.
Why should Israelis, including those who oppose Netanyahu, not see Neil Young, Radiohead or Nick Cave perform in Israel? They are all artists you have urged not to give concerts there.
Would you have asked Nelson Mandela or Desmond Tutu the same question about boycotting South Africa, or Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks, who used boycotts to fight against racial segregation in the USA? Naturally, Israelis should experience concerts by Neil Young or Nick Cave, but not until the occupation has ended and Palestinians have the same human and civil rights as Israelis – so that they too can go see Neil Young and Nick Cave when they want to. Israel celebrated Nick Cave and Radiohead after their concerts.
Do you think you’ve helped even one Palestinian with these boycotts?
I help all of them! Every single one of them!
I don’t think so.
It doesn‘t matter what you think! I love these people, and they know it.
How do you support these people?
By paying attention to their cry! By helping spread the message of their call for justice, peace and freedom! By talking to you, by making noise, by stating my opinion. By protesting. All of these things together bring light, and this light shines on a very dark place in the world, which is otherwise forgotten. "Each small candle lights a corner of the dark." You know the song. What is the right way, then? What would you do?
Write, talk, sing about it. Everything is possible and permitted. And it is being done. For example, in the magazine you are currently talking to.
When big-name artists sang for a boycott of South Africa in the Eighties with "Ain’t Gonna Play Sun City", was that wrong?
In this miserable world everyone is boycotting each other. You boycott Israel. BDS tries to boycott young artists from Israel. After this interview some will argue: Why didn’t SZ-Magazin boycott Roger Waters? Anti-Israel groups will pick up some of your statements to promote hate against Israel. Can this be the right way? Did you ever think about changing the weapons in this conflict?
I think about it all the time. If I or anyone else in BDS finds a more effective way we will use it.
At your concert in Munich, you compared Munich mayor Dieter Reiter‘s wish to prohibit your concert with the Nazis’ book burning. We Germans have made an agreement: Never compare anything with the Nazi regime! Six million murdered Jews form an incomparable level of guilt, and the book burnings are part of that.
While I cannot relate to your still evident feeling of national guilt over the Holocaust, after my stay in Germany and my conversation with you, I hope I now understand that feeling a little better. And if I have poured salt in open wounds and caused pain with my reference to the book burning in Munich, I truly regret that. But wanting to silence me, as the mayor would have done if he could have, is the same as burning a book. Books are burned to condemn authors to silence and destroy ideas. I am touched to hear you talking about these matters. Perhaps the Germans and the Jewish community are trapped in an eternal dance, every step an agony for the former oppressor and the former victim alike. But maybe resisting the experience of seeing “sights from which we would feign turn away” makes us blind when we should see, and silent when we should speak out.
The Holocaust was singular. Six million Jews were killed in an industrial process. This whole idea was first brought to fruition right here in Munich, practically in front of the door of the "Bayerischen Hofs", where you spent the night . . .
I know that, I am well informed about the horror. I would never belittle it.
This is also the city of Hans and Sophie Scholl, who were beheaded here in Munich for their beliefs.
I know that, too, I am familiar with the story of the "White Rose". I visited the graves of Hans and Sophie Scholl and Christoph Probst yesterday. What was the name of the cemetery?
That‘s it. All nations that were colonial powers or racist in the past carry a burden of guilt. What we British did in India, what Stalin did in Russia and the early Soviet republics, what King Leopold did in the Congo, the enslavement of black Africans. The genocide of the native Americans. Every form of suppression, mass murder, genocide disgusts me.
It all started with the boycott of Jewish shops and products. My father‘s mother went into a delicatessen here in Munich with a Jewish friend, Ms Prag, because Ms Prag was suddenly no longer being served in that shop. Why should we Germans – of all people – be thrilled that a rock star is urging us to boycott Jews again?
It is absolutely monstrous to even think of comparing what BDS does with what Hitler‘s Brown Shirts did to the German Jews in the 1930s! It’s so perverse, can’t you see it? But I am slowly beginning to understand this special German sensitivity. This talk has given me a better understanding of the silence around me. Thank you for that. I do wonder, though, whether you can understand the viewpoint of a Palestinian who just wishes to lead a normal life with the freedom to take care of his family and raise his kids in safety and peace?
I deeply respect your empathy for the Palestinians, but what I find disturbing is that you see the perpetrators only on the Israeli side, and the victims only on the Palestinian side. When it comes to this conflict, your world view is black and white.
You are right. There is no getting around it. It is black and white. There are the oppressed and the oppressors. To quote Desmond Tutu, "It doesn’t matter where it is or when it is. If there are oppressed and oppressors, it is black and white." Desmond Tutu compared Israel’s apartheid with South Africa’s.
Because everyone is shouting at each other and no-one is really listening, the whole debate is filled with misunderstandings and deliberate half-truths. One of these, which is still being printed and circulated on the Internet, is that you present the Star of David on a flying pig during your show as an Orwellian symbol.
Right. We removed the Star of David from the pig in 2013 after an open-air concert in Belgium.
The star is a religious symbol.
It is, but there were a number of religious symbols painted on the pig. There was a crucifix and a Muslim Crescent and Star. There were also corporate logos like the Shell Oil and Mercedes logos, etc. There was a lot of stuff on that pig. All, like the Star of David, symbolic of what I consider to be malign influences on human life and society.
Perhaps it was too much symbolism for one symbol, which is a strong symbol on its own?
You sound like you want to take over my job!
People understand abstract ideas. They do not need an editorial every five minutes. Here and there, it takes the magic away from your music.
Obviously, I don’t agree with your opinion about my use of the symbols in the Wall show. Of course not. Otherwise I wouldn’t have used them. I have always maintained that emotion resides in the detail of the show. In the Wall show when we were playing Goodbye Blue Sky, we showed symbols raining down like bombs, from the bomb bays of B52 bombers, meant to represent negative influences, the Star of David, crucifix, dollar sign, corporate logos and others. It was moving and strong and poetic at the same time. Why was it so? Because I wouldn‘t have done it otherwise. The art of criticising others is always one of those things. You know the story, about someone looking over the shoulder of Vincent Van Gogh and saying “don’t you think the sunflowers are too yellow?”
Why are you so focussed on Israel?
In 2006 I was booked to give a concert in Tel Aviv. I received a lot of requests to rethink my decision, especially from BDS, which was a very new movement at the time. Ultimately, I cancelled the gig and moved it to a rural location called Neve Shalom/Wahat Asalem, which is an agricultural collective, a cooperation between people of different faiths. A real village of peace. We attracted an audience of 60,000. The crowd were serious Pink Floyd fans, they sang along with every line. At the end of the concert, I said, "You are the generation of young Israelis that must make peace with your neighbours." It was like throwing a light switch. They suddenly became still and silent. As if they had been turned to stone. Un-comprehending – "What the fuck’s he talking about?" Last week in Berlin I met a guy from Israel who had been there that night – and he had understood. He was so moved by the silence at that time that he went into the desert for a few days to think about his life, and eventually left Israel. He now lives in Berlin.
He could be attacked in Berlin because he is a Jew. You do know that Jews who are recognisably Jewish are experiencing dangerous times again in Germany? That there are attacks? That Jewish parents fear for their children?
I have heard about these attacks. They are appalling. Racist. I know there is a deeply rooted anti-Semitism – in parts of German society and in other countries, including the UK. It is repulsive, but playing the anti-Semitism card against people defending Palestinian rights will not help! You know, I never knew my father because he died in the war, fighting against the Nazis, so my mother raised me and my brother on her own, and she taught us that we should stand up for the oppressed. My mother always stood up for the Jewish people, as have I. If she were still alive today, she would be standing up for the Palestinians. That reminds me of something that Sophie Scholl‘s father apparently said to his children one evening when walking along the Danube: "I want you to go straight and free through life, even when it‘s difficult."
Millions of people grew up with your and Pink Floyd’s music and lyrics, moved by the questions and doubts expressed in your songs. You haven’t raised many questions lately. But you give a lot of answers. Tell me about the moments when you still doubt.
Are we Humans or Lemmings? Will we follow the warlords in their headlong flight to destroy this fragile planet and every living thing on it or not? We’re about to find out. I will resist them with every breath. Life is too precious to be sacrificed on the altar of avarice.
How should we end this conversation? Just like in your song “Breathe”, I would love to say “Leave but don’t leave me” – and end with my belief that I think the methods of BDS are completely wrong. At the same time, you are certain I am a victim of Israeli propaganda.
Okay, let‘s leave it at that. Except I just can’t resist quoting Goethe, „None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe themselves to be free.“
Thank you. It‘s good that we talked.
It‘s good that we talked!